one of my favorite lotr facts is that gondorians speak sindarin as a first language and yet when faramir was talking to frodo and sam about cirith ungol he was like “we don’t know what’s in there.” like faramir. cirith ungol is sindarin for “pass of the spider.” do the math
some of my favorite tags on this post
Don’t forget that Frodo also speaks Sindarin, which makes this even worse.
Faramir: Hey, don’t go up the Spider Stairs.
Frodo: Why? What’s up the Spider Stairs?
Faramir: We don’t know, Frodo. We just don’t know.
to be fair, you’d assume the name means “there’s a lot of spiders here,” not, “there is one spider the size of a draft horse here.” so you go up expecting to have to shoo a lot of skeeter eaters out of your tent, and instead you have to figure out how to rope and shoe godzillarantula.
Hmmm…
They do live in a world where godzillarantulas feature prominently in mythology and history (Ungoliant plunged the world into darkness, scared the crap out of Sauron’s old boss, etc) and existed within the last century in Mirkwood. Assuming they ever talk to anyone who’s been to Mirkwood. They… probably know they were giant spiders in Mirkwood pretty recently? It’s hard to figure out how much anyone in Middle-earth has been talking to anyone else when we didn’t actually see it.
On the other hand – what if it’s the giant evil spiders’ prominence in history/mythology that’s causing trouble? What if lots of evil/nasty things/places get called “spider” just to indicate how nasty and evil they are, rather than any association with literal spiders, and it’s just… overloaded? Maybe the bad part of town in Minas Tirith is the Spider District. Maybe every tavern trying to be edgy calls itself the Spiderweb.
Actually spider/Ungoliant references could be really appealing to Gondorians trying to be edgy. They’re dark and evil! Plunged the world into darkness! But they AREN’T involved in the war they’re actually fighting, they aren’t directly associated with Sauron at all, so getting too interested in them would be creepy without being potentially treasonous. Because no one’s ACTUALLY going to worship those dangerous but not epic spiders up in Mirkwood, and no one’s heard anything from any proper spawn of Ungoliant in ages and ages.
In fact, spider/Ungoliant references might be appealing to ORCS trying to express that something is nasty and creepy! Nobody likes Ungoliant.
Maybe Faramir’s been to fourteen different Spider Caves across Ithilien, and half of them he didn’t even see regular spiders in, they’re just dark and damp and may have had orcs at some point, or something, and at some point in history someone got spooked. So you know, it’s POSSIBLE Spider Pass has something to do with spiders? But really it just means people don’t like it.
(The problem with this theory is we never actually SAW anyone overusing spider references. But it’s plausible they would!)
This sounds like something Tolkein would agree with.
that actually makes a lot of sense. there are probably hundreds of river rapids in north america called Devil’s Cauldron. if someone tells you not to canoe on that river, you’ll assume it’s because the rapids will smash your boat, not because the literal devil will boil you for soup.
I feel like we as a society don’t talk enough about the fact that Faramir and Boromir could see the future, and that Faramir might have been a fucking psychic??
No listen now I’m finding page references because I honestly can’t believe I didn’t find this weirder the first million times I read these books
So we all know that the reason Boromir goes to see Elrond in the first place is because Faramir has been having these dreams about “seeking the sword that was broken” in Imladris and that Isildur‘s bane is there and such. Presumably after Denethor ignores him for long enough, whoever is sending out these prophetic dreams gets fed up and sends one to Boromir so Denethor will actually finally listen and take action (my complex feelings about Denethor are for another post lmao)
So there’s some solid evidence that Faramir, and at least to some extent Boromir can fucking. SEE THE FUTURE. And that little fact just doesn’t really get brought up again AT ALL in Fellowship of the Ring? (JRR Tolkien I love you but why were we deprived of the random travel conversations the fellowship must have had while traveling all over middle earth together)
Later on, Faramir describes seeing Boromir’s body in the boat he was sent down the Anduin in, and he knows way ahead of time that Boromir was dead – another instance of somehow knowing about things that happened hundreds of miles away when there is ABSOLUTELY no way he should have.
BUT THEN things get a lot weirder in The Two Towers when Faramir captures Frodo and Sam and Gollum. Faramir is interrogating Gollum about whether he had ever been to Henneth Annun before, and this is what happens:
Slowly Gollum raised his eyes and looked unwillingly into Faramir’s. All light went out of them, and they stared bleak and pale for a moment into the clear unwavering eyes of the man of Gondor. There was a still silence. Then Gollum dropped his head and shrank down, until he was squatting on the floor, shivering. “We doesn’t know and we doesn’t want to know,” he whimpered. “Never came here; never come again.”
“There are locked doors and closed windows in your mind, and dark rooms behind them,” said Faramir. “But in this I judge that you speak the truth.”
– The Two Towers, pg 689
That’s kind of a really weird thing to say. Maybe Faramir is being poetic and not literal when he says he can see into Gollum’s mind, but the elaborate description of their eye contact almost makes it seem like there’s something else going on here. Plus, somehow the eye contact alone is enough for Faramir to judge definitively that Gollum is telling the truth. This brings up something Gandalf says to Pippin about Denethor:
“[Denethor] is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try.“
– The Return of the King, pg 759
Like father, like son, it seems. I bet Denethor just loved that.
Again, maybe Gandalf is just speaking figuratively and is saying that Denethor is just really insightful. But it’s kind of weird to interpret it like that that in light of Gandalf putting that right next to a statement about Denethor’s bloodline that makes him and Faramir “different” somehow. Is Gandalf saying that they both can literally perceive “what is passing in the minds of men”??
BACK TO ITHILIEN (sorry this is more of a ramble than a well structured essay)
Faramir is asking Gollum if he knows what Cirith Ungol really is:
“It is called Cirith Ungol.” Gollum hissed sharply and began muttering to himself. “Is not that its name?” said Faramir turning to him.
“No!” said Gollum, and then he squealed, as if something had stabbed him. “Yes, yes, we heard the name once.”
– The Two Towers, pg 691
“As if something had stabbed him”?? There’s really no indication of what this “stabbing” could be in this context. It’s not Smeagol trying to keep Gollum from spilling the beans, because Gollum is the one who wants to keep the hobbits in the dark about Shelob. So who/what is stabbing his fucking mind?
Faramir sends Gollum away with Anborn and is talking to Frodo about Gollum.
“I do not think you should go with this creature. It is wicked.”
“No, not altogether wicked,” said Frodo.
“Not wholly, perhaps,” said Faramir; “but malice eats it like a canker, and the evil is growing. He will lead you to no good.”
– The Two Towers, 691
Gollum leading Frodo to no good might be the understatement of the year, as well as an incredibly accurate one. I don’t need to keep saying this but of course he could be speaking poetically or figuratively. It just seems to me that there’s a LOT of these instances over the course of these books.
Putting Denethor and Faramir in a room together is, of course, always fucking wild for a MYRIAD of reasons, but let’s look at (the part that always fucking kills me) this scene:
“Do you wish then,” said Faramir, “that our places had been exchanged?”
“Yes, I wish that indeed,” said Denethor. “For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard’s pupil.”
–The Return of the King, pg 813
I’m pretty sure this is the first(?) instance of Faramir being referred to as Gandalf’s pupil. I’m highlighting this point because it kind of sets a precedent as to why Faramir and Denethor, despite both seeming to have these supernatural abilities to read people and situations, come to SUCH different conclusions about what to do with The Ring. Faramir has been studying with Gandalf, a magical wizard, since he was a kid. I really don’t think it’s that far of a stretch that Gandalf, who once again is literally a god or Maia or whatever, was able to teach him how to actually use this ability to read and/or influence minds. (Plus he wasn’t wrecking his own mind by staring into a palantir 24/7 but I digress)
I’ve been writing for too long, so here’s just a couple of other points that come to mind.
When Denethor is on the pyre, Faramir, who apparently hasn’t moved for like two straight days, somehow seems to know that his father is nearby
When Faramir is retreating from Osgiliath the first (second overall, first in the book) time, he can somehow get his horse to turn around and go back for the men being chased by FIVE NAZGUL when every other instance seems to involve people and animals just immediately losing their shit
When he’s talking to Eowyn in Houses of Healing, he mentions that this situations “reminds” him of Numenor’s destruction, which took place, hmm, an AGE ago. And he says that he dreams about this all the time (this one is linked to that weird ability to see things happening when they’re not happening in real time)
Anyway. Those are my two cents on the subject. Everyone in the line of Stewards is a fucking psychic to some extent and that’s what Tolkien intended
okay, it’s late and I don’t want to cite things but I really want to respond to this: yes! Yes, this is all 99% certainly true! Welcome to magic in LotR! This is the mother of all fantasy, but magic is not a flashy thing of wands and jets of light (HP) nor explicable on a frankly scientific level (Cosmere) nor even, say, the lack of definition and rules but the definitive effects, like time travel or mega lightning strikes, of Robin McKinley’s Damar books. No, LotR magic is incredibly subtle, and could at almost every turn be explained away by saying that a particular person is insightful, or inspiring, or just makes really good fireworks.
Seriously, Gandalf is The Wizard, but the most explicit magic we see him do is those more-than-natural fireworks at Bilbo’s going-away party, and in RotK when he, like, “casts a light” at a swooping Nazgul. Compare him reviving Theoden in the book vs in the film, which of course follows a more modern (and film-appropriate) dramatic view of magic – sure, the book has a bit of illusory storm and then light, and Gandalf definitely knocks Wormtongue out for lightning for a moment, but there’s no weird possession and magically induced aging going on. It’s like 90% psychology. (”Headology” – Pratchett knew what was up.) Note that this passage is begun with Gandalf singing, in the book – song is magic/divine power, in LotR, ever since Eru first began singing the world into existence. It is arguably not a matter of characters casting spells so much as a signifier to the reader that “magic” is happening now, or about to? But also it’s straight-up a spell. It’s no mistake that the runes readable on the Ring are a part of a poem describing its power and intent.
Faramir can use such power, a little, as can Denethor and Aragorn, because in all three of these men, the blood of Westernesse runs strong – in Aragorn in particular, who can heal, and wrest the focus of a Palantir away from Sauron with will and right. (It helps, per the extremely vague rules that govern LotR’s magic, that the Palantir is his by right of inheritance. For extra fun, se…a post somewhere that I’m not going to spend more time finding about how Frodo arguably “cast the spell” that sealed Gollum’s fate.)
Anyway, yeah, Faramir and Denethor have, like, metaphorical recessive genes of what Aragorn has in a more truly direct line, that is, a the blood of the Men of Westernesse, who were given longer lives and a home in sight of Valinor (home of the gods, ish) way back when. Literal physical proximity to Valinor is a rough equivalency for Right/Good and, consequently, granted Magic/Divine Power in The Silmarillion, or at least classist elves think so. Perhaps, as rumored, there’s even a dash of elvish blood in them, though I’m skeptical of that – Elrond does have two spare uncles, whose fates are unclear, but there are really only supposed to be 3 unions of Elf and Man and we know about all of their progeny. Possibly Elros got around, but he would have been doing that in the early days of Westernesse anyway, sooo…same thing.
Tldr: You’re absolutely right, but it’s deliberately vague bc that’s just how LotR works, and I love it.
Anyone else here familiar with the essay
Ósanwe-kenta? It’s subtitled/translated “Enquiry into the Communication of Thought” and is the closest Tolkien gets to discussing the actual rules of “magic” in Arda. The rules concerning telepathy (as understood by the Eldar and written down by Pengolodh), are outlined and discussed.
It was published in volume 12 of HoME, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, and was written sometime around 1960, so a few years after Return of the King was published, and according to the Tolkien Society’s timeline, shortly after his retirement and at the same time as several of his other essays about Middle-Earth.
Although Tolkien was beginning to rework parts of his cosmology at this point, I find that the concepts and details discussed Ósanwe-kenta are very consistent with the descriptions of telepathy found in LotR, of which several examples have already been discussed.
In brief, telepathy is an ability inherent to all minds (sámar, here distinguished from fëar, spirits). Bodies tend to get in the way, though, so it is harder for Incarnates to use than for Ainur, and harder for Men than for Elves. Therefore, Incarnates typically need their telepathy to be strengthened for effective communication. This can happen through affinity (as between family or friends), urgency (any great need), and authority (duty, or rightful command). Furthermore, any mind can refuse to permit entry of any other’s thought.
By these conditions, then, Faramir’s questioning of Gollum makes more sense. As the Steward’s son and an officer of Gondor in one of Gondor’s territories, Faramir has the authority to find out what Gollum knows and ensure he is not a danger to Gondor or ally of Sauron. This would naturally strengthen his telepathy, which is probably already stronger than average due to his Númenorean heritage. The “closed doors” he perceives in Gollum’s mind are likely his experience of Gollum refusing to allow him in fully, so Faramir is limited to mostly observation. Whether or not Faramir knows exactly what he’s doing, this leads to a very accurate assessment of Gollum.
Faramir, Denethor, and Gandalf aren’t the only ones who are shown using telepathy, either. Aragorn does it repeatedly and deliberately, particularly after entering Gondor. Galadriel examines the Company telepathically upon their arrival in Caras Galadhon. Sauron seems to use telepathy to command and control his armies. Celeborn, Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf chat that way on the journey home.
Okay, if you couldn’t tell, I really like this subject, and think it’s a pity it’s not more widely recognized. Tolkien is always stranger than most people assume, and it’s wonderful.
I’m reminded of the bit in Lothlorien where, in response to being asked if the elvish cloaks were magic, the elf being questioned was like “I don’t really know what you mean by that, but sure?” in the same way that a modern-day person might respond if they gave someone a bullet-proof camouflage vest and were asked “Is this a technology?” For an equivalent in our world it’d probably be like being able to sense and maybe even manipulate the Earth’s magnetic field. If your whole race can do that at a fairly competent level then you’re probably going to develop electricity and associated tech a lot faster than people who can’t, but from their point of view it’s not, like, mystical or anything.
Also, because it’s passed down via bloodline, most people who have the thing live in a community where the base assumption is that everyone has the thing, and most people who don’t have the thing “know” that it’s this exotic talent that only turns up in Magical Beings, so the idea that it might turn up in a Gondorian isn’t really an everyday concern or something people are on the lookout for. So it takes an outsider observer like Gandalf to be like “Two of these Men are not like the others, and the specific way in which they are not like the others is similar to this other thing”, while Faramir’s just going around with his psychic powers like
I feel like we as a society don’t talk enough about the fact that Faramir and Boromir could see the future, and that Faramir might have been a fucking psychic??
No listen now I’m finding page references because I honestly can’t believe I didn’t find this weirder the first million times I read these books
So we all know that the reason Boromir goes to see Elrond in the first place is because Faramir has been having these dreams about “seeking the sword that was broken” in Imladris and that Isildur‘s bane is there and such. Presumably after Denethor ignores him for long enough, whoever is sending out these prophetic dreams gets fed up and sends one to Boromir so Denethor will actually finally listen and take action (my complex feelings about Denethor are for another post lmao)
So there’s some solid evidence that Faramir, and at least to some extent Boromir can fucking. SEE THE FUTURE. And that little fact just doesn’t really get brought up again AT ALL in Fellowship of the Ring? (JRR Tolkien I love you but why were we deprived of the random travel conversations the fellowship must have had while traveling all over middle earth together)
Later on, Faramir describes seeing Boromir’s body in the boat he was sent down the Anduin in, and he knows way ahead of time that Boromir was dead – another instance of somehow knowing about things that happened hundreds of miles away when there is ABSOLUTELY no way he should have.
BUT THEN things get a lot weirder in The Two Towers when Faramir captures Frodo and Sam and Gollum. Faramir is interrogating Gollum about whether he had ever been to Henneth Annun before, and this is what happens:
Slowly Gollum raised his eyes and looked unwillingly into Faramir’s. All light went out of them, and they stared bleak and pale for a moment into the clear unwavering eyes of the man of Gondor. There was a still silence. Then Gollum dropped his head and shrank down, until he was squatting on the floor, shivering. “We doesn’t know and we doesn’t want to know,” he whimpered. “Never came here; never come again.”
“There are locked doors and closed windows in your mind, and dark rooms behind them,” said Faramir. “But in this I judge that you speak the truth.”
– The Two Towers, pg 689
That’s kind of a really weird thing to say. Maybe Faramir is being poetic and not literal when he says he can see into Gollum’s mind, but the elaborate description of their eye contact almost makes it seem like there’s something else going on here. Plus, somehow the eye contact alone is enough for Faramir to judge definitively that Gollum is telling the truth. This brings up something Gandalf says to Pippin about Denethor:
“[Denethor] is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try.“
– The Return of the King, pg 759
Like father, like son, it seems. I bet Denethor just loved that.
Again, maybe Gandalf is just speaking figuratively and is saying that Denethor is just really insightful. But it’s kind of weird to interpret it like that that in light of Gandalf putting that right next to a statement about Denethor’s bloodline that makes him and Faramir “different” somehow. Is Gandalf saying that they both can literally perceive “what is passing in the minds of men”??
BACK TO ITHILIEN (sorry this is more of a ramble than a well structured essay)
Faramir is asking Gollum if he knows what Cirith Ungol really is:
“It is called Cirith Ungol.” Gollum hissed sharply and began muttering to himself. “Is not that its name?” said Faramir turning to him.
“No!” said Gollum, and then he squealed, as if something had stabbed him. “Yes, yes, we heard the name once.”
– The Two Towers, pg 691
“As if something had stabbed him”?? There’s really no indication of what this “stabbing” could be in this context. It’s not Smeagol trying to keep Gollum from spilling the beans, because Gollum is the one who wants to keep the hobbits in the dark about Shelob. So who/what is stabbing his fucking mind?
Faramir sends Gollum away with Anborn and is talking to Frodo about Gollum.
“I do not think you should go with this creature. It is wicked.”
“No, not altogether wicked,” said Frodo.
“Not wholly, perhaps,” said Faramir; “but malice eats it like a canker, and the evil is growing. He will lead you to no good.”
– The Two Towers, 691
Gollum leading Frodo to no good might be the understatement of the year, as well as an incredibly accurate one. I don’t need to keep saying this but of course he could be speaking poetically or figuratively. It just seems to me that there’s a LOT of these instances over the course of these books.
Putting Denethor and Faramir in a room together is, of course, always fucking wild for a MYRIAD of reasons, but let’s look at (the part that always fucking kills me) this scene:
“Do you wish then,” said Faramir, “that our places had been exchanged?”
“Yes, I wish that indeed,” said Denethor. “For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard’s pupil.”
–The Return of the King, pg 813
I’m pretty sure this is the first(?) instance of Faramir being referred to as Gandalf’s pupil. I’m highlighting this point because it kind of sets a precedent as to why Faramir and Denethor, despite both seeming to have these supernatural abilities to read people and situations, come to SUCH different conclusions about what to do with The Ring. Faramir has been studying with Gandalf, a magical wizard, since he was a kid. I really don’t think it’s that far of a stretch that Gandalf, who once again is literally a god or Maia or whatever, was able to teach him how to actually use this ability to read and/or influence minds. (Plus he wasn’t wrecking his own mind by staring into a palantir 24/7 but I digress)
I’ve been writing for too long, so here’s just a couple of other points that come to mind.
When Denethor is on the pyre, Faramir, who apparently hasn’t moved for like two straight days, somehow seems to know that his father is nearby
When Faramir is retreating from Osgiliath the first (second overall, first in the book) time, he can somehow get his horse to turn around and go back for the men being chased by FIVE NAZGUL when every other instance seems to involve people and animals just immediately losing their shit
When he’s talking to Eowyn in Houses of Healing, he mentions that this situations “reminds” him of Numenor’s destruction, which took place, hmm, an AGE ago. And he says that he dreams about this all the time (this one is linked to that weird ability to see things happening when they’re not happening in real time)
Anyway. Those are my two cents on the subject. Everyone in the line of Stewards is a fucking psychic to some extent and that’s what Tolkien intended
honestly I always just took this as read & presumed it was down to this:
‘(Denethor) is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir…’
ie, Faramir & Denethor are basically full-blooded Numenoreans, who had special powers due to being half-elven. This would also shed some light on why Faramir is able to ‘recall’ the destruction of Numenor.
This suggests that Aragorn is also psychic which I believe there’s some evidence for, tho the only thing I can recall off the top of my head is this passage:
Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the (messenger’s) eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. ‘I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!’ he cried.
in which Aragorn MIGHT be having a psychic battle of wills with the Mouth of Sauron (who is also of Numenorean descent & knows ‘great sorcery’).
So. Yes. the Blood of Westernesse gives people psychic powers. probably.
So I’ve watched a bunch of Very Good Videos today.
Lindsay Ellis has been doing an examination/critique of The Hobbit films and her team’s finally finished the last one:
They are Excellent(u_u), Perfec(u_u u_u), and Majestic(u_u u_u u_u).
Lastly, through a VERY Circuitous route which began with searching for obituaries for the late lamented Harry Anderson(Here is Markie Post. Here is John Larroquette. Here is an Obit By David Hill at The Ringer which I very much liked), is this talk on Consciousness by Dan Dennett(TED 2003; somewhat dated; don’t want to bother trying to embed it) that, incidentally, has some pretty fun perception games in it :>
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost.
I started thinking: how did Telchar make Narsil in the first place? (…
Telchar first wrought it in the deeps of time … )
The dwarves of yore made mighty spells, While hammers fell like ringing bells
Narsil is a first-age sword. It’s a dwarf-sword, not an elf-sword. (Though, potentially, using some Noldorin technology, since it was made by Telchar of Nogrod, presumably during the period when Nogrod, Belegost and Thargelion were at the height of wealth and technology, when Curufin was learning Khuzdul, and Caranthir was trading with the Dwarves.)
It’s probably about six thousand seven hundred years old.
Let me consider that for a bit. 6700 years. 6700 YEARS.
It’s older than Stonehenge is now. It’s older than the Pyramids. It’s far older than the oldest known coins. If we had a sword that was 6700 years old today, it would have to be made of stone, because that’s well before the start of the Bronze Age.
I can’t think of any metal object in the real world that is still in use after 6700 years.
And it’s being remade from Narsil to Anduril in Rivendell, which means, I’m guessing, that those two guys hitting it are smiths escaped from Eregion that Elrond swept up and managed to rescue during his insanely-risky post-fall-of-Eregion attempted rescue mission. Eregion, of the jewelsmiths. Eregion of the Rings that can avert entropy.
And later, Anduril seems to know what it’s hitting, and be able to flash light at just the right moment…? Maybe it can do what Sting does and detect enemies.
…mighty spells…
Maybe you DO remake the damn thing by hitting it with a very carefully tuned hammer while reciting poetry? In the absence of a treatise on the practice of Elven Enchantments and Dwarven Spells And Their Employment in Metalworking it seems as valid a theory as any.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic,
Arthur C Clarke’s third law says.
No doubt Galadriel would argue with the use of the word ‘magic’ on the grounds that it isn’t sufficiently distinguished from the deceits of the Enemy, but we don’t all have the advantage of having studied with Aule, Galadriel.
… I love this scene!
I have always wished to read On the Practice of Elven Enchantments and Dwarven Spells And Their Employment in Metalworking. Because this is not how iron-based metals work. Ferrous metals neither work that way in the sense of “function” nor do they work that way in the sense of “to bring to shape by gradual process.”
If I try to consider it as steel, I have the following issues:
If that is a (forge)weld, you are hammering too hard and will break it.
If that is a weld, where is your flux?
It’s not even the right kind of weld for a high-impact tool (i.e. a sword), so even the idea of welding in this way is wrong, but we’ll ignore that since it’s apparently what they are doing. (Re-forging a sword is exactly what it says on the tin, forging again.)
Good temperature-color for shaping, not hot enough for sticking (welding)
Lawsy, someone teach that boy how to aim his hammer
Or maybe give him a proper smithing hammer?
Or some muscles? That ain’t how your swing that (estimated) 3-pound hammer.
The sparks always give me a special shudder because if your steel
comes out of the fire sparking, you’ve burned it and have to REMAKE YOUR
STEEL (or cut off the burned bits)
Never mind how that steel isn’t hot enough to spark white
What are you even doing?
If I try to consider it as a whitesmithing situation (gold, silver, etc) then I have even bigger issues, so that’s a no-go.
Ergo, either “magic metal” or “metal that has had magic applied to it.” A metal we have no access to or steel that has had enchantments applied so that it no longer functions molecularly like steel.
(It’s Tolkien, why not both? I’ve always headcanoned something like a mithril-alloy with magical enhancements.)
In spite of all that, 10/10 for feels. Bonus points for atmosphere and working at night. (Leaving aside ideas that starlight might help with Elven enchantments, a dark forge is properly historic and the still used by many of the best swordmakers.)
And now 11/10 for the idea that those are
Eregion
smiths.
Reblogging because I secretly hoped @ilsa-fireswan would have Thoughts on this!
frodo and sam’s love for each other is literally the only thing keeping middle earth from just spontaneously combusting
No, but like, that’s literally it. Gandalf straight-up says to Elrond this Quest can’t succeed by force or wisdom, but by friendship. If Frodo and Sam hate each other even a little, Middle-Earth is doomed.
And it gets more terrifying when you realize that one of the strongest powers of the Ring is to turn people against each other, and that even if it didn’t, the Ring and the Quest still put Frodo in a psychological state where he can barely keep himself sane, let alone love anyone or anything other than the Ring. In fact, I’m fairly sure the Ring tried to persuade Frodo to kill Sam far more often than the books shows – the Ring tends to encourage murder, from what we see. Instead of listening to the Ring, Frodo somehow manages to keep in the back of his mind that he can trust Sam more than he can trust himself, and I have no idea how Frodo can resist the temptation to think his trust is misplaced.
And sure, one could say, “Oh, but Sam has to understand it, so it’s not all that bad” but you have to remember Sam is a plain, non-Tookish hobbit with no inclination or skills for adventuring around and yet he has to become the entire Fellowship. Name one thing the Fellowship did for Frodo that Sam doesn’t also do. He has to advise, guide and protect him as well as keep his hope alive and remind him of who he is. The amount of pressure he’s under is incredible, and unlike, say, Aragorn, he has no experience to draw from. Plus, Merry and Pippin tend to rely on each other, while Frodo relies on Sam, but Sam himself hardly seems to have anyone to turn to for strength. I’m not saying Frodo doesn’t support him as well as he’s able – actually, Frodo is remarkably consistent about taking care of Sam from Book I to Book VI. But what Frodo is capable to offer (see the paragraph above) is far from being all that Sam needs. And actually, in the last stages of the Quest, Sam is basically living a one-sided relationship under the worst possible conditions, and that his devotion doesn’t even waver despite that just blows my mind.
That the Quest was successful is one of the most incredible and beautiful things that Tolkien wrote. Frodo and Sam walked straight into the Land where no love can exist and managed to become closer to each other than they had been. It’s the biggest fuck you Sauron probably ever got. No, seriously. Frodo and Sam beat a Maia basically by cuddling a lot and talking about food. Like, what the fuck??? I mean, if I told you someone could write a 1000 pages novel in which a pacifist and his gardener beat a minor god via supporting each other emotionally, would you believe me?
It’s classic Tolkien: the surprise element (i.e. flawed creatures can be incredibly noble even under unspeakable distress) might overcome even the most carefully thought out plots devised by powerful evil lords. (See also: the entire Silmarillion, pretty much.)
what she means: the words “christmas tree” are used in the hobbit, and since we know that bilbo is the author of the hobbit, hobbits must have christmas which means there must be a middle earth jesus. but hobbits seem to be the only ones who have the concept of christmas which means it was probably a hobbit jesus. but frodo says in return of the king that no hobbit has ever intentionally harmed another hobbit so who crucified hobbit jesus?? were there other hobbit incarnations of religious figures?? was there hobbit moses?? did jrr tolkien even think about this at all??
Wait wait I might actually have an answer
Tolkien wrote The Hobbit like waaaay before he even dreamed up the idea for Lord of the Rings, so when he DID dream up LotR, he had a whole bunch of stuff that didn’t make sense. Like plotholes galore
Like for example in the first version Gollum was a pretty nice dude who lost the riddle contest graciously and gave Bilbo the ring as a legit present and was very helpful and it was super nice and polite and absolutely nobody tried to eat anyone because this is a story for kids and that’s very rude
But that doesn’t work with LotR, so Tolkien went back and re-released an updated version of The Hobbit with all the lore changes and stuff to fix everything that didn’t work
This is the version we know and love today
BUT rather than pretend the early version never existed, Tolkien went and worked the retcon into the lore
If you pay attention in Fellowship, there’s a bit where Gandalf is telling Frodo about the ring and he mentions how Bilbo wasn’t entirely honest about the manner in which it was found
To us modern readers, this doesn’t make a ton of sense, so mostly we just breeze by it–but actually that line is referencing the first version of The Hobbit
The pre-retcon version of the Hobbit is canonically Bilbo’s original book. The original version with Nice Gollum is canonically a lie Bilbo told to legitimize his claim to the ring and absolve him of the guilt he feels for his rather shady behavior
Then the post-retcon version is an in-universe edited edition someone went and released later to straighten out Bilbo’s lies
So it’s 100% plausible that the in-universe editor who fixed up Bilbo’s Red Book and translated it from whatever language Hobbits speak was a human who knew about Christmas Trees and tossed the detail in to make human readers feel more at home, because that’s the kind of thing that sometimes happens when you have a translator editor person dressing up a story for an audience that doesn’t know the exact cultural context in which the original story was written
Tolkien was a medieval scholar and medieval stories are rife with that sort of thing, so like… yeah
Not only all that, but Tolkien was also working within a frame narrative that he wasn’t the real author, but a translator of older manuscripts; so, in-universe, the published The Hobbit isn’t actually Bilbo’s book, but rather Tolkien’s copy of an older copy of an older copy of an older copy of Bilbo’s book. So when errors and anachronisms came up, he would leave them there instead of fixing them, and he may have even put some in intentionally; what we’re supposed to get from the “Christmas tree” bit is that the first scribe to translate the book from Westroni to English couldn’t come up with an accurate analogue for whatever hobbits do at midwinter.
Yes. Another example of tolkien doing this is him using, for instance, Old High Gothic to represent Rohirric – not because the people of Rohan actually spoke that language, but because Old High Gothic had the same relationship with English that Rohirric had with Westron (Which is the Common Language spoken in the West of Middle-Earth). There’s tons of that stuff in the book.
Like, Merry and Pippin’s real names (In Westron) are Kalimac Brandagamba and Razanur Tûk, respectively (to pick just one example of this). Tolkien changed their names in English to names which would give us English-speakers the same kind of feeling as those names would to a Westron-speaker. Lord of the Rings is so much deeper than most readers realise.
tolkein’s entire oevre is just one epic in-joke with the oxford linguistics department imo
All fanwank aside, never forget that Tolkien’s actual, ostensibly canonical explanation for why the Fellowship didn’t just ride the Eagles to Mordor is basically “because the Eagles are huge assholes” – and given Middle-Earth’s demonstrable track record with trusting people in positions of authority to do anything constructive, that’s probably not an unreasonable concern!
@siliquasquama replied:
The eagles used to be pals with Manwë himself. They used to guard
GONDOLIN. Ferrying a bunch of people hither and thither is beneath them.
… and the fact that they’d regard literally saving the world as beneath their dignity is a big part of why they’re huge assholes.
So, we know elves fear (souls basically) and hroa (body) are linked. Ex, if the elf is upset as hell their body just…degrades. That part is canon.
So, I think it would make sense that a sad, their body would require more sleeping, food, etc to sustain itself.
This takes stress-eating and breakup-icecream to the max. We know elves typically aren’t the biggest eaters in the world. But if an elf was very upset, they would just eat and eat and eat, sleep all the time, etc. Which leads to a few things.
1. To a smaller degree, emotion snacking is basically mandatory. “Fuck, I just failed a test. Aaaand I could go for like five hamburgers right now.”
2. This could also go for larger things. Just like human’s depression-nap system, a sad elf will just. Sleep. For weeks.
3. Perhaps it’s an elvish custom to hold huge feasts after times of sadness. Beloved town member just died? Thier funeral will have a shitload of food. Everyone will need it. Post-battle? Better start a huge potluck, shit, these elves need a lot to eat to keep up their souls now.
4. FOOD GIFT BASKETS ARE A MUST. Flowers? No one needs them. The real thing to do to cheer up your elf friend is send them several crates of protein bars.
5. Maedhros probably ate an absurdly huge amount, all the time. Even on top of how much he would eat being so tall. Invite this guy over for a buisness dinner? Better have an extra four portions for him.
6. “Elrond dude there’s like hundreds of chip bags scattered in your office” “I KNOW but i am WORRIED”
-“Perhaps it’s an elvish custom to hold huge feasts after times of sadness. “
Well, that would explain why Thranduil holds so many feasts in Mirkwood
I think, on a first readthrough of the Silmarillion, there were a lot of things I accepted as happening because the plot required it, not because, you know, it actually made any sense. Like the departure of the Noldor from Aman, or Morgoth stealing the Silmarils, or Thingol wanting a Silmaril, or Celegorm and Curufin turning evil in Nargothrond.
But I think that’s selling Tolkien short, and selling the story short. I’ve made the case in detail for why some of these apparently-plot-motivated decisions made sense, and today I’m going to tackle another one by exploring the Silmarils: why they deserve the reverence they’re treated with by the text and by the characters, why the determination of everyone to steal them or hold onto them isn’t as stupid as it looks, and generally why I think we sell the story short by behaving as if they have only sentimental value.
just moving along like everyone else 